Guided Outings
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Topic created by Sandy on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 1:39 pmA post on Attackpoint (an orienteering website: www.attackpoint.org) got me to thinking about an idea for helping beginners learn the sport. We mention that we have instruction at all of our events, but what about occasionally offering a guided excursion on the White course. Perhaps have it scheduled at a particular time - so not available on demand. Maybe post something saying at 11:00 and again at 12:30 someone will be available to take a large group around on the White course if there is anyone nervous about trying it completely on their own. We could stress that doing it on their own is definitely doable but for anyone wanting more than just the 5 minute crash course and then going on their own, a more extended instruction complete with a guide is availalbe.
Of course this means we need to recruit volunteers to lead the excursions. It might be worth trying at an event or two and seeing if it seems to be popular or not and whether it seems worth the volunteer investment in time. Perhaps it is something the juniors could do as a fundraiser - asking for donations to help fund junior travel to the Interscholastics in return for having them accompany a group on a white course.
It might make sense to have it be something that would need to be signed up for ahead of time, but perhaps it could also work less formally. We could certainly try it a couple of ways and see if any of them have a positive impact. -
Reply by BRycharski on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 2:48 pmHi Sandy, I AM Interesting in this guided thread very much. At least 4-5 inexperienced and younger Scout teams at Quail Hill last week found 2 maybe 3 orienteering controls (I asked team whats up with DNF at finish) and then the decided it was too hard and came back to finish and settled for a DNF.
Not sure how to implement the guide training, but it would be a way to train the really "I'm not getting these 10 minute instructions" totally and to really show how to do a proper map hike for a for the totally clueless new teams. Its a shame and fustrating for the participant and I do know frustrating for the average course setter to have White and yellow easy map hikes cause team confusion to the "un-initiated" to our hiking O sport. One can never make a white or yellow map hike "Too Easy"... -
Reply by Steve on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 5:50 pmGreen Lane Nature Center has asked Sharon and I to do an educational program for the last seven or eight years. I have been breaking the program into 3 parts. Part one is at a picnic table where I talk about the colors of the map and how contours work. I only mention a compass if someone asks. Part two is what I call a walk and talk. It is a four flag course that we all do together. I ussually talk from the front, while Sharon answers individual questions in the back. We also will break up and do different route choices, which we talk about at the next flag. Finally, part three is a 11 flag course back to the picnic tables, complete with one minute start intervals and refreshments at the end. Most people will stay long enough to discuss their mistakes and victories. I am not sure how many of these people have become regulars or members.
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Reply by sfmones on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 6:01 pmI also like the idea of guided training. With respect to Bob's comments about Quail Hill, in an hour and a half of standing around, I trained one group. I understand Dave Urban and others might have trained a couple of other groups. That is out of 300+ Scouts. Every other Scout leader or group I approached declined training and said they knew how to orienteer. Apparently the results say otherwise.
I think guided training would be particularly valuable in small groups of no more than 3-4 Scouts or newbies. Beyond that number, it is difficult for everyone to participate to the extent necessary to see what is going on with the map and terrain. I speak from some experience in this regard. My very first orienteering experience was with Cub Scouts at Fair Hill in 2007. Eight of us, four fathers and four sons, were in our group, and no one really had a clue what was going on. We blundered around and eventually finished the White course. I saw the map only once or twice during that time. Coincidentally, the very next event was at Iron Hill, so my son and I tried it again. It makes an amazing difference when one actually has the map in hand rather than just following people blindly along trails.
The idea of regular times for guided training might work at large events. We could have volunteers already signed up. At small events, there is usually someone around who would not mind taking 30 minutes to go out with newbies. I did it once with a friend as a warm-up for another course.
By the way, are we going to be offering guides on Green courses? Just checking.
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Reply by edscott on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 7:22 pmI've done lots of programs similar to what Steve and Sharon do at Green Lane using the permanent course at French Creek. I'll start with a group and do a couple controls while walking & talking. After the second control I turn them loose to go to #3 via different routes and I cut through the woods to be there when they arrive. Control three then becomes the start and I send them out in small groups from there to complete the course. Doing this on a larger scale at local events would probably be well received. Yes I agree pre-registration and a predetermined time would be the way to go. That way a volunteer could plan their own run around it.
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Reply by DaveUrban on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 7:46 pmI like it - sign me up as a guide. Perhaps we could do white and or Yellow.
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Reply by FredR on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 8:17 pmI posted something similar a year or two ago, so perhaps its time to revisit it in this context...The original idea was to have a well-publicized "summer training event", but it could be done on a smaller scale and/or at greater frequency. At such an event, many of of our experienced club members--from illustrious WOC and national team members, JWOC team, Interscholastic champs, etc. on down--would be available to be guides or shadows/rabbits to others at an appropriate level. As a fundraiser, it could be an auction (how much would you pay for an hour of Clem's, etc. time?) or based on course (free for White, $1 for Yellow, and so on)Group instruction and/or what Ed describes is probably great for beginners, but we shouldn't forget about people, for example, that have been running Orange and are frustrated when they move up to advanced courses. For many people, watching or being watched while learning is more effective than getting the theory then being sent out into the woods alone.
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Reply by Orienteeringmom on Thu Nov 18, 2010 at 8:23 pmSandy, I saw the same AP post and thought about it as well. As a part of the beginning training at the Annual Training weekend in Sept they get a 45 minute map hike where a trainer takes the group out for a short walk around camp talking about the different features on the map. Everyone has a map and can see what is being discussed. The very last thing the beginners do is a star course which ties everything together that they have learned that day. This seems to work very well for everyone that takes the beginning training whether they have never done an O courses or whether they have done one or two. I think that doing either a part of the white course as a group and letting them finish on their own or walking the entire course is a great idea. I would gladly volunteer to do this as well.
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Reply by furlong47 on Fri Nov 19, 2010 at 1:58 amI agree it is a good idea not only for beginners but sometimes for the more advanced runners as well. I went on a map walk that Eric W. led at Hickory Run a few years ago at the summer picnic, I believe it was the Green course, and learned a lot and got to think about different techniques I don't always use.
People have different learning styles and some are not going to 'get it' just by being talked to and shown the map and compass while standing around the registration area. For some it really needs to be hands on and they learn by doing.
A few of us from SVO hold an event for Scouts once a year in conjunction with one of our mapped parks. We sometimes use the walk through a smaller 2 or 3 control sample course before sending them out (depending on numbers of volunteers vs participants). I usually set the courses for this and try to make the beginning of the white course very easy and welcoming as they get a feel for using the map - first control is always visable from the start as long as they are facing the right way -
Reply by Steve on Fri Nov 19, 2010 at 9:26 amFred reed said
"Group instruction and/or what Ed describes is probably great for beginners, but we shouldn't forget about people, for example, that have been running Orange and are frustrated when they move up to advanced courses. For many people, watching or being watched while learning is more effective than getting the theory then being sent out into the woods alone."
My first ever course was a G3 advanced night O at Hickory Run training. Jogging with a Blue runner taught me a ton. However, I do not think that most orange runners will take you up on a guided tour. By the time they reach that level , they should have a few freinds that would invite them for a group run.
Furthermore, we already have Hickory Run Training. -
Reply by FredR on Fri Nov 19, 2010 at 3:23 pmSteve, I wish you were right, but I don't see a whole lot of what you suggest actually happening. The number of groups at Orange and above is pretty small, and most of those are probably made up of people that are about the same ability--a fun day in the woods, but not so much an intentional learning opportunity. Maybe its just me, but I can't recall ever going out as a group except with my own kids.I personally would feel pretty sheepish about asking someone in the club that's much better than me to follow me around Green or Red at a normal event, particularly if it keep them from running competitively that same day.My idea was to take some event, maybe in the spring--offset from the Fall training weekend and when people might be interested in "moving up" for the year--and focus on training and group learning rather than competition.
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Reply by Sandy on Fri Nov 19, 2010 at 7:18 pmFred - Easy enough to do what you suggest. Just volunteer to be an event director for an event this spring and indicate that your event has a special format: no one can run a course above orange without also volunteering to shadow someone or whatever else you can think of to accomplish your goal. Alternatively, just organize a training event.
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Reply by FredR on Fri Nov 19, 2010 at 8:14 pmThanks Sandy--I'm a half step ahead of you... already looking at the schedule.Rather than hijack this thread any more that I already have, I'll start a new one to get feedback.
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Reply by bobburg on Sat Nov 20, 2010 at 11:33 amLove this discussion. The thing I most like about Sandy's initial posting is the suggestion to incorporate a "course-walk" routinely -- or at least frequently -- at regular events. Don't have to organize a special event or wait for next September's annual training. Everyone's already there. It's simple, it's quick and accessible, and relatively easy to set up with a couple of volunteers per event.
Also like Ed's approach of mapwalk the first 2-3 legs, let them try the next one on their own, and anyone ready can complete the course on their own.
At the various programs I run, I've learned to insist that EVERYONE has a map in their hands. Otherwise some participants will always just be along for the ride. When it's a parent and child sharing one map, that might be a great way of bonding while hovering over the same map. But when you get a larger group or a group of peers, everyone needs a map in hand.
To encourage this, I propose that we have a different fee for extra maps for groups going out -- say, the normal fee for the first map, but then additional maps at $2 or $3.
And lastly, I would love us to offer an internediate version of this on some sort of regular basis. Why wait for special training events or weekends to help established orienteers who are interested in refining their skills? I especially enjoy taking out people who still hug to the trails and other linear features, and showing them how to read and navigate by advanced features in the terrain.
On Route Gadget, I often notice that even some Brown and Green runners, leave a control and make a beeline to the nearest trail, even when it makes no route choice sense. They obviously don't feel comfortable reading the terrain and are out in front of their skis. And obviously committed Yellow and Orange runners would welcome some hands-on mini-trainings to feel more at home out in the middle of "nowhere."
I think this is a great brainstorm topic -- e.g. "How to Incorporate In-the-Woods Training Into All Events" -- for the Winter Meeting. I'm willing to organize it if people think it's worth offering.
And let's kick ass at Lewis Morris tomorrow.
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Reply by o-maps on Sat Nov 20, 2010 at 2:55 pmExcellent Thread. When I teach O for Chester County Adult Night School, in addition to the 3 2-hour classroom sessions, in recent years, I've added a 4th session, which accurs in the woods. I encourage students to go to a specific event at 10 and do the W or Y on their own, acquiring the map for free with the coupon I gave them, then at 12:15 we meet at registration, go over thier experience on thier course, walk to any problem spots, then take of in the woods to find some of the Orange or more advanced controls talking about the features we see along the way. At various points of this 2 hour+ walk, various students will take the lead. Tis is by far the most succesful and productive part of the whole class experience.
Incorporating something similar to our regular events on a semi-regular occasion is an outstanding idea. -
Reply by rgbortz on Sat Nov 20, 2010 at 10:37 pmWhat a wealth of great ideas and methods utilized to insure interest in one of the greatest outdoor activities ever invented. For the recent introductory course for a group of young Naval Sea Cadets held at French Creek after basic familiarization with orienteering they were sent out on the permanent course in groups of 3 or 4. I followed around the course as a sweeper to help anyone in need of assistance. That seemed to be the best thing in their learning process as this helped most of them take corrective action and keep going to a successful completion and an enjoyable day. We wouldn't send our child or grandchild off on a solo for the first time, why would we ask anyone else to do so ?
I, for one, am all in for mentoring anyone new to the sport. And, for the Steves out there, as offered in the past, I am willing to mentor any level not only on meet days but on any other day agreeable.
Houston, it looks like we have a launch. Go for it Bob. Mastermind it and they will follow.
