Quail Hill Results
-
Topic created by DSevon on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 7:57 amFor everyone who came out to the Quail Hill event, the DVOA team hopes that you had a great time in the woods with the wonderful weather we had this weekend (hard to believe this is actually mid-November). Turns out we had a record number of people at this event. For those who were frustrated with the lines, please accept our sincere apologies as that is not how we like to run an event. The technical difficulties that we had for a large potion of the day unfortunately added to the confusion level. We will have a post-mortem discussion on this event and will have a revamped system in place for next year's event.
For the results, I have good news and bad news. The good news is it appears I can extract results from the control boxes that will give fair results for everyone, and I have established start times for about 25% of the groups. The bad news is that I've only done ~25% of the starts so it will take some time to sort through the data. I hope to have the results processed by the end of the week, and I'll add a post in this topic when the results are done.
Doug -
Reply by johncampbell on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 9:23 am
It was quite a day at Quail Hill on Saturday with the epunch! We arrived early so Kathy could explain the set-up of the epunch - well I certainly learned a lot about the system and things to avoid in future. Despite all that, it was an excellent event and you did a great job on the courses especially for those who did the red (combination of brown + green courses) making sure the runners did not do a repeat of similar legs. Designed like an old course setting pro.
I think a big thanks is due to all the competitors for being very patient and understanding of the issues we faced with the epunch. It just goes to show that good courses, good weather and patience can go a long way. -
Reply by kathyu on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 2:37 pmIt was quite a day! Registration and download seemed to be working perfectly, even though lines were long. I had my head down all day, logging in one team after another. Thanks to Doug, Dan and John and Sandy on the phone who finally figured what the problem was and reprogrammed the problem boxes. For those of you who wondered what was wrong -- the Clear boxes weren't clearing and the Check boxes weren't checking! Very special thanks go to Doug who is recreating the scores from the individual control boxes. Many punches were used two and even three times, creating another challenge, as they ran out of room on the punch. The boxes in the woods might still be able to report everyone's times. It was so great to be able to handle the epunch rentals knowing Doug, Dan and John and Sandy and Dave were coping with the box problem -- I had total confidence they were doing whatever could be done. A real case of "Press on Regardless". Rick helped organize the kids as they signed up and Dan took over the registration at 1:00 so I could go run.
-
Reply by Guy-O on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 5:20 pm
To add to Kathy's comments, the apparent reason the clear and check units were not doing their jobs, was because they all had been reprogrammed as finish units, presumably for Hickory Run Rocks. They had probably also been re-labeled as "Finish", but when the labels were removed, the units were not reprogrammed back to clear and check.
It is not hard to see how, in the warm glow of a successful A-event, with happy but tired workers gathering e-punch equipment for redistribution into the respective kits, that this could happen. Unfortunately, even though it is doubtful that Doug contributed to the original mistake, he got stuck having to sort everything out.
For the sake of future Dougs -- and the O-participants they will serve -- I hope that post-event checking of SI-unit functions is added to the MUST DO list. -
Reply by Sandy on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 6:10 pmDear Guy -
I am well aware that I made an error and I am well aware that I caused a lot of grief on Saturday. I do not need you to rub it in.
In fact I did reprogram the controls - it was not a case of "forgetting". I took everything home and reprogrammed everything in the two kits for the two events this weekend. I simply made an error when I reprogrammed them. In fact, the clear boxes were clear boxes at the A event and I mistakenly reprogrammed them as something other than clear when I was reprogramming everything for Saturday's event. Luckily I did not make the same error in the other kit and there were no issues at Fair Hill.
And I did offer to take care of trying to reconstruct things since it was my fault so Doug was not really "stuck" doing anything. He graciously volunteered to take care of it after discusssing the options with me and others.
Sandy
-
Reply by Guy-O on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 7:07 pmDear Sandy,
My apologies. It was not my intent to rub anything in, nor to flush out the responsible party.
That said, thank you for speaking up, correcting my assumptions and (also) graciously taking responsibility.
Perhaps the new(?) "must do" for local event EDs and CSs is this: Check that all SI-units being deployed at an event are functioning as they should.
Guy -
Reply by FredR on Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 8:53 pmI can empathize with Sandy, Doug and Kathy (all at once!).Programming epunch control units is a mind-numbing task when your kitchen table is stacked high with boxes and each one requires detailed attention. The chance for error is substantial, which is why we double (and more) check these things before A events. But that kind of extra effort is hard to justify before each local event. We're not sending people to the moon and not getting paid the big bucks. Occasionally, something is going to slip through.My own similar story of epunch pain: At the beginning of the year, we got all the boxes back from having their batteries changed. They needed to have their programming checked, firmware updated, and clocks sync'ed.Somewhere in the process, I had left out some start and finish boxes from the clock updating. Soon thereafter, I was the lone epunch operator at the Hay Creek event using that kit. As people started coming back to download, it was clear there was a problem. Some downloads just didn't work, some times were clearly wrong and/or impossible (like 3 minutes to finish the course...).It took most of the day to figure out that the clocks on the start and finish boxes (we were using two of each) were wildly wrong in different ways. To add to the complication, OE2003 tries to be "smart" about clock time when dealing with AM/PM and overnight and adds its own interpretation. According to the clocks, some people (depending on which of the two start and finish boxes they used) finished before they started and similar nonsense.To fix the problem, I downloaded all the data from the boxes, put it in a spreadsheet, then figured out which of 4 possible cases (2 starts X 2 finishes) each runner seemed to belong to and applied the required adjustments by hand.If I had to do that for 400 runners as in Quail Hill, I would have gone blind and crazy. But it would have been done eventually.Bottom line: It would be great if we could learn something from these kinds of mishaps, but unless the fix is easy and not more work then it might not be worth the effort, particularly if its something that only a handful of already busy people (like Sandy) can do. If there is a proposed change in procedure in response to these kinds of mishaps, the decision ought to be made with some perspective--such as comparing the risk of a tainted result against the loss of willing volunteers who don't want the extra effort or stress.
-
Reply by Guy-O on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 1:46 amI could be wrong, but it would appear that the Start, Finish, Clear and Check units are the most critical at local events -- with only Start and Finish requiring reasonably accurate clocks.
-
Reply by FredR on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 9:40 amYou're right Guy. You need functioning Clear and Check boxes (as the discovered at Quail Hill), and reasonably synchronized clocks for Start and Finish, more so if using more than one of each.
We're getting to the point where EDs and/or setters know (and know how) to sync the clocks before each event, so that's a diminishing concern. As for Check/Clear, I guess we now know it would be prudent to check them when there has been recent re-programming (e.g., an A event). The programming of the numbered controls actually isn't that critical, because once the problem is discovered the laptop software can be easily changed to temporarily fix the problem (just as if a box if broken or stolen, you can quickly relabel another and use it without reprogramming). Of course, the label should be what's on the clue sheet. -
Reply by Steve on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 10:08 amI was not at Quail Hill, but I sympathize with both the organizers and the competitors. E punching has revolutionized our sport as far as the scoring goes. With pink cards, I can remember not checking pin punches many times. At A events there were always a dozen cards that had to be held up to a light to see if the fourth pin punctured the paper or not. Florida's hanging chads had nothing on us. With that in mind, E punching has really been a breeze.
As a regular competitor, I would think that I would have noticed if the clear box went too quickly. A lesson learned here should be if it doesn't feel right, ask. I don't know if attempting to download the first card after clear/check , but before start would have helped, or if someone could have fixed the boxes in the field if they had known.
Hang in there Doug, we know you are trying, and we know you are a volunteer. -
Reply by o-maps on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 10:10 amWe may not be sending people to the moon, but we ARE a TOP 10 Adventure Sport!
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/10/21/adventure-sports/?test=faces -
Reply by wilburdeb on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 11:18 amI was at Quail Hill and had a good experience. I wrote an event evaluation for discussion at our next board meeting. Below are some of POSITIVES I saw and experienced:
- Lots of turnout!
- Courses were great and accurate (a few flags were too obvious, IMHO). At least in the areas I went to, the map was accurate and the woods were white to light green.
- Lots of O’ training going on.
- Many scouts were enthusiastic about the sport and showed interest in doing more Orienteering.
- Because we had no real split printouts at point of service, we told all participants to check the DVOA.org site for results in a couple of days. So we should get more traffic on the web site.
- Sergei Federov got his "significant other" out on a course.
-
Reply by Guy-O on Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 2:29 pm
I "second" Dan's #4...
While working the finish (with Eugene Frolenko, then Zac Barker) taking backup times, I occasionally asked scouts to rate their orienteering experience on a 0-10 scale. While admittedly a non-significant sample size, the lowest I got was 9. One kid enthusiatically replied "99.99999". :-)
Now, how to translate that to repeat attendance? That is the question... -
Reply by BRycharski on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 0:18 amHi Guy, you Mis-speak ... Me think's on this topic. This just past Orienteering meet and youth training event is the 12th annual Quail Hill Scout event (one year we had 2 Quail Hill visits, one private Scout camporee) I have repeated as host and ED since 1999 (not counting Bob Burgs Dual O Meet last year). And, As the effort to host this NJ meet is still mostly fresh in my small brain, and I know of at least 3 repeat Troops (like Troop 110 and Troop 132 Scouts to name a few) that were at the event Previously. The issue is "who" is going to add follow on Scout "events" with me, not to even mention the obvious NJ ROTC HS cadet interest/O angle shown which was first seen in about 2003 or 4 by first MAST HS students/teams - then of late, Rancocos Valley RHS. The real problem really is how to get better access to the limited parking at Quail Hill, ..."Accio" more Parking Spots (ah la Potter/Hogwarts magic) just does not quite make it work for me. We will hopefully talk about this repeat "O" business for another 12 years, not just the first 12 'O' meets ... Check your facts please 1st.
-
Reply by Guy-O on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 1:40 amHi Bob, me thinks you misunderstood.
The repeat attendance of which I spoke referred to the Scouts who enjoyed orienteering getting to more O-events -- and not just at Quail Hill. -
Reply by edscott on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 11:18 amYes, Scout Orienteering events serve two purposes. The first and most obvious is to provide Orienteering instruction and experience to the scouts and we do want them to return each year.. hopefully ready move up a level each time, but the more important objective is to give the Scouts and Leaders the opportunity to see Orienteering as a lifetime family activity that will keep them coming back to other events for years to come. It would be easy to compile a list of many currently active DVOA members who received their introduction to O at one of our Scout events.
-
Reply by yoyonateo on Wed Nov 17, 2010 at 11:37 pmScout orienteering to me is the best way to get people interested in the sport. That is how i got introduced and hooked on the sport. I am still involed with scouts as well as orienteering. I try to get my whole troop out once a year to a local event or a fun course that i set up for them. In fact in october i was able to introduce 386 boyscouts to orienteering at the Chester County Council camporee. To me it felt as if i accomplished something for the sport of orienteering. Scouting to me is the best way to introduce youth and even adults to the sport.
-
Reply by Orienteeringmom on Sun Nov 21, 2010 at 1:06 pmLike it has been mentioned, DVOA and many other clubs have some very active and very good orienteers whose background introduction came from scouting. Just to name a few for you so that you do realize HOW important scout orienteering is as a YOUTH into to our loved sport. The Thatcher's, Singley's Nate O and his family, Julie Keim, Donna Teferfenko, Porter's just to name a few, I'm sure that I missed some too. Ed S. did you start with scouts or college? I have finally gotten much need help with the USA Junior Team and once we get everything up and running I want to get back to recruitment of youth and organizing the USA Junior Development team. There has been a great deal of interest in retention of scouts and this is one of the best ways to do so I think. Anyone interest in working with me on DVOA's little slice of the USA Junior Development team contact me and hopefully we can get something going in the new year. We can tie this in with the thoughts going on in the other thread about working with new beginners at local events. Also we can think about having one local event a month advertised as a scout into/ training meet to see if that get any repeat visits of individual scouts or troops. These are just a very of my thoughts but without help they will stay just that thoughts. Hope to hear from all of yoi interested in these ideas and have some of your own. The more help we have the less work each of us will have to do.
Janet Porter
