Springton Manor results
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Topic created by Vadim on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 10:07 pmSprington Manor results were altered to void legs which included two misplcaed controls #57 and #58 on Brown, Green, Red, and Sprint courses. We apologize for any troubles you had on your courses due these mistakes.
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Reply by shiatsuron on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 10:28 pmMisplaced? Tampered with?
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Reply by furlong47 on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 10:55 pmThere are still some errors in the math... or something.It looks like for people who missed one of those controls and were reinstated, the time for the other leg was not subtracted from their total? (Ron Bortz, John Ort, Mary Frank, Dave Morgan... maybe that's all)People who never found both controls get reinstated but don't get any of their lost time back (I guess it would be impossible to determine) since it all shows up on the split to 5.
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Reply by KathleenG on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 0:39 amDang. I found both, #57 by following a bearing; I walked right into it though it seemed a wee bit further than I expected. #58 seemed more surrounded by brambles than expected, but since I was rash enough to follow a likely elephant track into a cul-de-sac, and then after retracing my steps, squeezing through a "rabbit hole" in the right direction instead of being conservative and returning to the path, I guess I was lucky to find it at all. Dang again, if the times weren't voided, for the 1st time ever I would have been the fastest to a control! Oh well. The control I thought was mis-hung was #60, which supposed to be about parallel to the edge of the field, but instead was almost parallel to #52. And #52 was supposed to be on the north side of the feature (at least on the Brown cue sheet) but was on the south, but hey, the springhouse was obvious, and from #60 you could see the flag.
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Reply by Steve on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 7:39 amI agree with everything that Kathy said, right down to the cul-de-sac. Kathy and I were both late starters, and since Kathy Urban is writing haiku about wandering controls, I wonder if the flags were fixed by the time I arrived. #60 was hung far too south, I suspect that the marsh is larger at this time of year, and the flag was hung where the marsh ended. That being said, as a group we destroyed that wetland, because we were where the circle was. Yes, it was possible to go around the marsh to the flag, but we did not know that . Course setters must think about these things, or we will not be invited back. Overall I enjoyed the day, especially since I was nowheres near three hours (see FCE, HR results). Even the gully washer felt good for a while, although my dry clothes felt better.
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Reply by Len on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 8:01 amI liked the courses. I dont think I ever saw the charcoal terrace for 57 but hey, that's nothing new for me. Looks like we're all ready for one of Karl's Trail-Os
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Reply by rgbortz on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 8:39 amWith three misplaced controls that involved more than one course the only FAIR thing to do is make this event null and void for rankings. Study the splits... it doesn't add up. Correcting misplaced controls midstream really throws a wrench in it.
It was a fun day in the woods. Perhaps a future event with purposely misplaced controls would be a hoot. Use identical features up to 50 meters apart, now choose which to go to first, GOOD LUCK.
Thanks to John,Nate and team for all the work to put on this event. -
Reply by Vadim on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 9:30 amThanks everyone for input. It's almost none to impossible to correct splits especially if both are missing and giving same time to all runners on affected legs makes no sense either.
I'll leave it as it is for the Results, but entire event will be excluded from Rankings calculation. -
Reply by anniemac on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 9:33 amThanks to everyone for doing their best to correct the situation. I had a fun day in the woods and got a great workout.Ron, it looks like the 10:37 was not subtracted from your time and you should actually be in 2nd place.For once I finished in the upper third, and I am of course very disappointed to hear that this event will not be counted in the rankings. (But I understand why.) Oh well! On to the next course!
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Reply by Len on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 1:13 pmThat's a real bummer because I finally put two reasonable runs together, to spite the control mis-placement, and was looking forward to see how well I actually did. Will they still be posted on AP? I still would like to review the results and see which legs were strong or weak.
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Reply by ErikEddy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 2:45 pm
I think most club members like the sense that their run (+drive to event) “counted”, even if it is not the most "fair" option. I can certainly see the dilemma (especially on Brown/Green where controls were skipped). I doubt this would greatly skew any awards at the end of the year, and most members could get an idea of how their run went. Hopefully this doesn't happen again; can we take a poll or discuss more about the validity of using the good legs before tossing out the entire event? I'm okay with either decision: I'm just thinking about the club and event participants/volunteers as a whole.
How about making the best of a bad situation by considering the option below?
W, Y, O: No change
Sprint: Void 72-58 leg. No mp/dnf issues here.
Brown: Start the course from leaving #58 (3rd control). Issue here is #60 (1 MP and 1 DNF; definitely misplaced). The DNF should be a NC, 50-60, 60-52 should be voided to salvage the MP. Brown revised would be 9 legs: {(58 (start box), 59, 50)+(52(start box #2),61,46,53,48,49,40,F)} .
Green: Add time from S-1, 1-2, 5-End (void 2-3, 3-4, 4-5). Perhaps void 51-60 (everyone punched #60).
Red: Void 44-58, 56-57. Potential issue here is the 1 DNF (nc); everyone else punched all of the controls.
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Reply by furlong47 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 3:56 pmI really like the results with nothing voided because I won the course
However, voiding the entirety of the affected courses is the most fair option (and is what should be done if you consider OUSA rules anyway - if this happened at an A meet the entire courses would be thrown out. Leg voiding not allowed.)
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Reply by j-man on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 4:31 pmI wasn't there, and probably am not in a position to speak, but leg voiding is not done nationally or internationally. It has been extensively discussed in certain forums (like Attackpoint) and the consensus is that it is much more fair to void a course than void certain legs on a course. It is unfortunate, but if fairness is the goal, the course(s) should be voided.
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Reply by Vadim on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 4:47 pmIn our case, excluding from Rankings calculation would work as voiding entire event, but having Results available will give runners some oportunity to compare their performance.
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Reply by ErikEddy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 5:38 pmGiven that leg voiding is normally never done, voiding the advanced courses makes the most sense to me now.
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Reply by LarryG on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 10:44 pmRoutegadget would be interesting for Springton Manor, too. Maybe I can figure out how I got stuck in the muck four times and totally lost sense of direction twice during my 43min leg to the elusive #60.
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Reply by Steve on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 8:00 amRoute Gadget is up.
My GPS looks like 57 is right where I thought it was, 58 is a bit west of where I found the flag, and 60 was hungtoo far south. It will be nice to see some more gps tracks -
Reply by Len on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 8:10 am
I'm with you Erik. I didn’t analyze your options, but to me, it doesn’t matter how it's done... if only it could count. A voided event happen last fall at Fair Hill and it was a similar heartbreak, and I think I aggravated people by asking too many questions. Not my intent. I'm just new and don’t understand all the ramifications of doing it one way or another. And I'd like to see that my effort was worthwhile. Yes, it was just fun to be out and orienteering, but the sport and the way it is set up makes it a competitive outing.
Anyway, done is done, but for my two cents... count it for everyone who navigated the courses as they were and don’t count it for those that didn't (or don’t want to be counted). -
Reply by KathleenG on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 8:57 amInteresting! I thought (based on the brambles, and where I came out in the overgrown field after leaving the control) that #58 (3rd control on Brown map) was placed on the smaller rock that is a little SE rather than the larger one in the center of the control circle. However, Steve's GPS route goes nowhere near either - nor any rock in the vicinity!
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Reply by rgbortz on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 9:38 pmFor those who want to understand further why these advanced courses in particular must be voided for ranking points................
Look at the Green course results.
Note the runner with the fastest finish time without regard to any misplaced controls.
Now note the runner with the second fastest finish time without regard to the misplaced controls.
Suppose the first runner (fastest finish time) is a very experienced competitor. He gets to a feature in the center of a circle and no flag is there. He looks quickly at the map and knows his attack point was dead accurate and should be a spike on the flag. The feature is extremely prominent and there is not a similar feature within 50, maybe 100 meters. He knows that there is a problem; either stolen or mishung flag and moves on to the next control. Lost time: perhaps 30 seconds.
The second fastest runner comes by and can't find the flag. Being of much less experience with these situations he spends 5, 10 minutes, maybe more looking for the flag. Maybe he "bumps" into it, maybe not.
Now, if you take the much longer time away from the second fastest runner, due to his milling around looking for the control, who may end up with what looks like the fastest time in the results ?
This scenario was further complicated by multiple misplaced controls.
It's fun looking at the results but do you see there is no justice in ranking points under these conditions ?
