Governor Dick
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Topic created by sfmones on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 8:54 amThank you to everyone who set up and ran the event yesterday. Brown was a challenging course. It was very much like Rocky Ridge, only rockier!
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Reply by FredR on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 9:26 amThanks to Steve and the many other people that provided feedback on the courses yesterday. It was my first official course setter job, and like others that have posted before, it is great to get comments, both good and bad, to help learn and improve for the next time. Keep them coming!
A bit of self criticism... In retrospect, I think the Brown course may have been too rocky for the intended audience. I also had a request that perhaps the Brown course be printed on a different scale when the complexity of the map makes it difficult to read for aging eyes. The challenge for this event was keeping the Brown course on target for climb and distance while keeping the difficulty at an advanced level. There might have been a better solution, but in this case I chose to use the rockier/greener areas near the ridge top with some trepidation.The rest of the courses didn't require as much balancing of competing concerns, so I was generally more satisfied with them. If there was something that I did right or wrong there. I'd like to hear about it.Fred -
Reply by sfmones on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 10:36 am
Fred- I do not believe the Brown course was excessively difficult. I think what happened (at least for me) is that I looked at the length of 3.5 km and thought I was having a day off. This was a tough, challenging course that happened to be only 3.5 km in length. The proof that the course was not excessively difficult is the fact that everyone finished and no one took three hours. If the goal of a Brown course is to pack advanced level controls into a shorter course with less climb, you met that goal. I may have grumbled a bit (well, maybe more than a bit) as I scrambled over the rocks and boulders, but hey, no one forced me to sign up for this course. There were also no breaks with easier controls thrown in for variety. In my opinion, last year's Brown course was less challenging from a physical standpoint, and I guess I was not mentally prepared for tougher terrain. I am just glad that I did not do Green yesterday; even Demon looked more tired than usual.
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Reply by edscott on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 11:03 amYes I liked Brown too. And giving Brown runners a small taste of the rocks should prepare them for the intensity to expect on the Eastern Slope if a future Brown is set over there. I think parts of Governor Dick are the most technically challenging terrain we have available. Small errors cause huge penalties. Relocation in the sea of black dots could be a nightmare. Love it.
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Reply by o-maps on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 11:15 amWhat a gem of a park, and I think the mapping is outstanding!
Ed, thanks for stepping up at such a late date and your willingness to lose your virginity :) You did great!
Fred, I loved the Brown course. I particularly enjoyed the short technical legs (5-8). Given the rockiness of this park, I love what you did! Of course, I made two boneheaded mistakes (4 and 11) but I can't blame you for those. Winning time wa right on, and I enjoyed the variety of long and short legs, with a few that allowed a bit of jogging. Only 2 legs had significant climb and you gave us delightfful streches of white woods. Given the contraints of the terrain, I thought Brown was terrific! Thank you and as well as all the others who helped pull this off! -
Reply by Trazy on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 4:14 pmYesterday was a marvelous day for orienteering. The sun was actually shining, after consecutive days of overcast drizzling chilly damp weather. Yaayyy!
I enjoyed going orienteering for my first DVOA event of the season. I knew I was in for a challenge when I saw we only had 10 controls on a 5. 7 km green course, which meant long distances between controls. Then the tons of black dots & miles of boulders out there made it even more challenging. There was that long uphill climb to Start, then that long uphill climb again to the Finish. Whoa! I knew my compass is getting old and a little off, but fortunately my navigation wasn't too bad yesterday.
It was my first time at Gov. Dick park. It's a nice park. Thanks to everyone for making this event happen. I crashed and got sick as soon as I got home last night. I'm still recovering today. I don't know if I ate something bad, picked u a virus or if I just wore myself out. None the less, I'm still glad I went. It's a good course to help prepare for West Point A-meet at end of the month. -
Reply by KathleenG on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 7:22 pmI should have known that the relatively short Green (5.7) K would pack in the suffering somewhere! I was having a fairly good day (for me) and even found the boulders in the middle of the boulders. I love a more technical course as opposed to a "runner's" course. Alas, I tripped and fell onto a mid-path boulder, which put an end to my day - can't clamber through rocks any more when your knee is threatening to freeze up! But after hearing of the difficulties my husband had in the last Green leg, maybe I was luckier than he was...No, I don't mean that - the last leg did look wicked, but I really would like to have been able to tackle it with a fully functioning knee!
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Reply by DaveUrban on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 7:53 pmI also think the Brown was a nice mix of sticks & stones. Is it me or is the distance/climb difference between Br & Gr increasing? I'd like a little more challenge on Br.
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Reply by WindWalker on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 9:00 pmEvent #4, 2nd go at Green. This was my favorite so far. I liked the challenge of moving through the tough rocky terrain, but have to laugh when the control your trying to find is at a 1.5m boulder in a sea of boulders. Leg 3-4 I plotted a head on course which took me right down the face of the large cliff like boulder pile. Surely not the fastest route choice, as demenstrated by Route Gadget, but it did seem like the most interesting. Same thing from 9-10, right up and over the big boulders, I've dabled in top rope climbing and bouldering, so it just seemed more fun to go over rather than around.
Since there are no prizes to be won, or medals to be had, it makes each run a personal quest to do what you want. That's some of the beauty of Orienteering. You can pick a faster easier route, or a harder more interesting one. You're there only to get out of it what you want to. I guess when you get more advanced and at a competitive level it becomes all about the time, but for now I'm having a blast running around the woods, bouncing over logs, rocks and creeks, seeing the beauty well off the beaten path searching for the cleverly hidden orange and white flags.
Another cool thing is how totally involved you become with what you are doing. From the time you're handed the map at the start till you stick the e-punch in the finish hole, not one single thought enters your mind other than the tasks at hand. Great stress relief. Unless maybe your the type of person that gets worked up when you can't find a control. I'm not, I just sorta focus harder. I am finding this very mentally stimulating and physically challenging = GREAT FUN!
I'd like to thank Ed Scott for the use of his thumb compass and the French Creek maps. Moscow and Suunto Arrow 6 thumb compasses on the way.
Also thanks to everyone for being so helpful with lots of navigational tips. I'm learning.
Oh and picking up controls post event was a cool job, almost like a second untimed run, only I didn't do so much running.
Mike
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Reply by EricW on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 9:06 pm
Dave, you are not the first to notice this Brown- Green difference, and perhaps recurring problem. Bob Burg and I have already noticed and discussed this, and he might be writing something soon, directly on this subject. I don't want to steal his thunder, but I will speak about the Gov Dick situation.
Given the Start and Finish on Sunday, which I thought were optimal, there were two general routings possible for advanced courses, one using only the "white" side of the hill, and the other going around the hill and using the "greener and blacker" terrain. It was obvious the Brown course couldn't go around the hill given the normal short distance of the course. But once the decision was made to take Green around the hill to sample the other terrain, it had to be a little on the long side. I think the design of the Green course was pulled as tight as it could be (as short as possible) given the basic routing commitment. In fact during my involvement with Fred R, I believe we made a number of revisions, all of which served to shorten, or speed up the course as much as possible.
In this case I think the time difference between Brown and Green was greater than ideal, but justified, given the physical situation, and pre meet web site explanation. In other situations, .... well I'll let Bob B or others take it from there. -
Reply by bobburg on Mon Apr 4, 2011 at 11:14 pmFirst.
I'd like to encourage Wind Walker Mike as much as possible. While I wasn't as much an adventurer when I started (i.e. prone to inflict extra difficulties on myself as you are), I absolutely love your passion for orienteering. In that respect, I caught the same infection when I first ran into orienteering 11 years ago. I love this sport!!!! Glad you do too. Welcome to DVOA-OUSA-land.
Second.
Fred, I loved what you did with the Green course. My miserable time was solely due to my not trusting my map reading. My 3 outlandish legs (check out my Route Gadget routes) were solely because when I was only meters away from the control and didn't see it tucked away, I went on wandering explorations trying to relocate, and only gradually (10-15 minutes later) found my way back to the precise area I originally navigated to. (Then my third absurd leg where I tried to navigate the same leg twice in a row and couldn't figure out why the map wasn't showing me corresponding terrain.)
Green had great collecting features guiding us into intricate (but absolutely accurate) control features. Great course design.
Third.
Since Eric has called me out, it's time for me to speak my piece about course lengths. Way too often in the past 10-15 events, I have arrived at events only to find that the Green and Red courses were almost identical length and climb. I'd like to run Green, but when I have a Brown of 3.7k, 90m, a Green of 6.5k, 210m, and a Red of 7.2k, 220m, I'm lost in a quandary. Could we please offer a gradual range of distance and climb?! To give Brown and Green and Red -- really all courses -- a real choice?
I am stating this more emphatically than I originally intended, so please forgive me. And yes, my Colliers Mills courses featured a 5.9 Green, but on flat terrain and as short as I could possibly make it. And Brown was 4.0, Red 8.5 -- a good range that offered real choice to attendees.
And a small aside -- I joked with people manning Start at Gov Dick that I think we should include the walk to Start in the course stats. If the Brown has 90m climb, but the walk to start is 80m climb, I'm only slightly joking that it should be included in the course difficulty rating. At Antietam, for instance, I switched my course from Green to Brown, solely because I had already exhausted most of my climb for the day.
The aspect of a good spacing of distance and climb is a basic course setting principle that course setters have to recapture. And while distance to Start has so much to do with subsequent course design, I'd love if we could minimize those walks. At A Events, we hire buses to do our work, but at local events our legs (and endurance) have to do all the work.
Okay.....off my soapbox.
At any rate, I loved the Gov Dick event, where course length and climb fit the terrain excellently.
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Reply by FredR on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 10:21 amA bit more on Eric's discussion of the Green and Brown--yes, we worked to minimize the length of Green within the constraint of working both sides of the ridge. I was hestitant to do so, because it required spending more time on the trail through the boulders to avoid the most difficult terrain. But for those who were on it, the "trail" in question wasn't the usual mindless running that sometimes comes into play. Cutting out length on the nice side of the ridge would have been sad to miss all those white woods. My favorite legs on Green 2->3->4 would have been impossible without those long legs. Routegadget confirms the variety of route choices that I was hoping for.As for Brown, I think part of the discussion needs to be on the range of people being served by that course, which in terms of age is the broadest of any course. I have to say I was concerned that some of our oldest advanced runners were going off on Brown when I knew that some controls were on/near cliffs that would be a challenge for anyone to navigate safely. I certainly don't want or intent to patronize anyone, but are we obligated to make an advanced course that focuses more on mental than physical prowess and can be done at a slower pace in a reasonable amount of time? But that brings us back to the gap between Green and Brown. Putting it in personal terms, how big a gap must there necessarily be between the course that Tom O or John C. (or myself) would find enjoyable and challenging and a course that a non superhuman 75+ would find non-hazardous and enjoyable?Maybe the answer is not making the gap between Green and Brown smaller, but filling it (for local events) with something new. "Light Green" anyone?
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Reply by DaveUrban on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 11:23 amThis is not a BIG deal with me. Depending on the length/climb/knees I run Brown or Green. If I want more time in the woods - I volunteer to pickup controls.
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Reply by sfmones on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 12:56 pmSpeaking as someone who splits time between Brown and Green, I do not believe the answer is to create a "Light Green." I think that would be a solution to a problem that does not exist. I respectfully ask that course designers keep in mind that lots of Brown "runners" have a pace in the 20+ min/km range, as opposed to the single digits or teens. Therefore, a 1 - 1.5 km gap between Brown and Green is adequate, while the gap between Green and Red should be longer as the runners are proportionally faster. Brown at Governor Dick was a good course; it was just shorter than most and had a few controls in some difficult boulders. The climb was less than 3%, although I share the opinion that if I must trudge more than one-half mile and 100m of climb to get to Start, I may as well punch a control on the way! Again, the fact is that everyone finished the Brown course. I thought it was a very difficult course, despite its short length, but I would not call it unfair in any way. The controls were where they were indicated on the map. I think the matter ought to be handled on a case-by-case (park-by-park?) basis with ultimate reference to the general course guidelines. From a personal perspective, I tend to like Brown courses in the 4 - 4.5 km range, and Green in the 5 - 5.5 km range. I would like to go longer, but, realistically, at my typical pace they would be picking up my controls as I was finishing!
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Reply by j-man on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 3:35 pmWow! Governor Dick is a beautiful map. It is a shame that the debut was up against an A Meet that drew away some of the DVOA regulars.
Given the awesomeness of this terrain (at least from the 'paper') I really hope that it is a heavy part of the DVOA rotation. My feeling is that this terrain will not grow as tired or well-known to DOVA regulars, even with heavy use, as some other maps.
It requires good, careful course setting, of course, but I think there are a lot of possibilities to explore here. And we've just scratched the surface. -
Reply by edscott on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 8:34 pmI think rather than adding a "Light Green", which would complicate the course setting job, the rankings formulas and probably a bunch of other stuff I've not thought of yet, we should all strive to pick the course that is in line with our personal expectations for the day. I know it takes some experience, but I consider the terrain, the distance, what I did on Saturday, the weather, the course setter, my plans for after the event, how I feel, etc... and pick a course. I seldom come in second guessing my choice.Our course setters are usually good at designing the courses that produce the proper winning times. On our more technical maps however, there is the potential for huge penalties for poor navigation or route choices, which often make the average times higher than optimum. Remember that the design specifications for a course are winning times, not distance or average time.
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Reply by Petr on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 9:02 pmThis was our second event there. The first one was only on the white side of the hill. I knew it was going to be a great day of orienteering, although the combination of middle green and bolders on the other side of the hill looked overwhelming. Out of all rocky venues I found these bolders most friendly.
I enjoyed both the map and the red course. I think this place has a future. Not to mention how soft trails were , unlike those at FC we are used to. -
Reply by WindWalker on Tue Apr 5, 2011 at 9:51 pmNot to sway the topic of discussion, but Sunday I lost my base plate compass on the green 3-4 leg. So tonight I decided to head back out there with my wife and go for a walkabout and see if I could find my compass. We parked over on Rt117, not that far from the 3rd control. We found that right off and were mostly walking with lots of map study. We plotted our course for #4 trying to retrace my path. Was doing well until the top of the ridge with the big boulders, then it got thick and was hard to remember. My wife said more than once why would you go this way? I said wait to you get to the big boulders and have to climb down. At the bottom she said I wouldn't have went this way, smart woman. Anyhow, while I was on the top walking around looking for my compass, I looked up and seen a beautifull Bald Eagle circling overhead. Not too far away was a big nest in a tree, I'm thinking that was it's nest, cause it sure was squaking alot. Good route choice!
We continued on our way to control 4 and then proceeded to navigate to some charcoal flats, minding our position and looking at all the subtle features. I got to say this was really the first time I actaully "walked" through the woods and studied the map. It's amazing how much detail is on the map. It was a great map reading session and a beautiful walk even though I didn't find my compass.
Back on topic, I think that's another plus for this sport, you can pick the color you want to do at every event, go by how you feel. Lets take mountainbike racing for example, you race one of three classes, beginner, sport or expert. These levels set the distance and difficulty of the race, and there are age classes in each level. Once you race at a certain level you don't ever go backwards. Your stuck racing that level no matter how you feel or if you like or dislike the course conditions, etc. You only move up. I think it's great to have so many options in O. I think you guys got all the bases covered with the current courses, for what it's worth from the new guy.
I look forward to my first red, but think it will be better reserved for a course more like Norristown rather than Gov. Dick. And that's what's so cool, no one says I must do this or I must do that. You do what you want and hopefully enjoy it.
I think you guys are doing a great job, keep up the good work and see ya in a few weeks.
Mike
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Reply by o-maps on Wed Apr 6, 2011 at 11:50 amA couple of people have made comments about the long walk up to start, seemingly stating this was less than desireable. I couldn't disagree more. You can make me climb as long and as far as you want to off the clock. In many parks, it's the best solution, if not the only solution, to set good courses. Sure, it'd be nice to know ahead of time, but that's minor.
I have never, and will never, complain about long uphill walks to get to the start. They're a good warm-up, can give you some insight into the terrain, and most importantly, allow the course setter to set the best courses, while staying within suggested guidelines for max climb.
I specificlaly remember a recent A meet at West Point that had use hike to the top of a ski area, at least 1 k, can't remember the climb, then proceeded to let us orienteer back and forth down the hill side. A fantastic course!
Any way, I just wanted to way in on the other side of the issue and ensure course setters out there don't feel that these up hill pre-start walks are "verbotten". -
Reply by edscott on Wed Apr 6, 2011 at 7:05 pmI agree with John.. Many of our venues only have one or maybe two possible parking/administration areas so course designs tend to be very similar each time unless we walk a bit to find unique ways to use the terrain. I certainly prefer an uphill walk off the clock to an uphill leg on the clock. Perhaps it will seem silly to many, but if you feel the uphill walk will tire your legs walk backwards. You'll be using muscles that you aren't likely to need much during your run.
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Reply by EricW on Wed Apr 6, 2011 at 7:08 pmJohn, I think we have to forgive New Jersey course setters :-) and other flatland orienteers, who haven't had to deal with excessive climb.
I will concede that when long and/or steep climbs-to-Start are utilized, this is reason to err on the short side of course lengths, especially with the Brown, where the participants are already up against their physical limits, and its most importantant to keep the Brown course managable for the most physically challenged orienteers, because there aren't any shorter advanced course options. -
Reply by Petr on Wed Apr 6, 2011 at 7:19 pmJohn, I will need you to be on my side in the fall for dual event. There will be a note: "significant climb between finish and download". Same but different.
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Reply by o-maps on Thu Apr 7, 2011 at 9:00 amJohn, I will need you to be on my side in the fall for dual event. There will be a note: "significant climb between finish and download". Same but different.
lol. you got it! -
Reply by Steve on Thu Apr 7, 2011 at 11:18 amI don't mind the climb to start, but there should be some water and sugar when we get there. Off the clock means that there should be some recovery time before going on the clock, and a little energy wouldn't hurt.
As for the dual meet, (which I am the ED and Petr is the CS) I will make sure there is water at the finish and the halfway back spot. It should be noted that the preliminary courses Petr ha sshown me WYO have no climb and the rest are under 50m. Pretty impresive compared to my courses at star Village last year! -
Reply by browne on Thu Apr 7, 2011 at 1:42 pmI haven't seen so many comments about a single course (brown) in a very long time. It's also gratifying that many of us are learning from the experience. My lesson is, at my age, to stay off cliffs and boulders and instead opt for a dnf. With no regrets or criticism of the course setter. I felt at times like Indiana Jones and the Controls of Doom as I maneuvered among the rocky stuff, occasionally slipping and falling, and reclaiming a dropped clue sheet that had fallen down a crevice. Others handled these 2 contols well and I envy and congratulate them. Even more, those who did green and red. Awesome! The brown course was well planned.
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Reply by FredR on Thu Apr 7, 2011 at 7:16 pm...which, after all these many posts, brings us back to my original observation.If I had to do it over again, I think I would do a better job of accouting for the interests of our club members for which Brown is really the only option by quite a bit--Green and up being far too long, Orange probably too long as well, and White/Yellow simply not worth doing as orienteering. As many have posted here, the more physically challenging parts of Brown courses like this past one (except for maybe the walk to start
) are not a barrier to participation for them--yet.But, ideally, it seems like it should be possible to design a fully challenging course of nominal Brown distance and climb that poses the least number of barriers to participation by the group that Brown is supposed to serve. In this case, my attraction to the wonderful views, circling hawks and deviousness of the features may have led me astray of what should have been my objectives.I'm glad many people liked the Brown course, and yet sorry that it should have been better.Next time... -
Reply by DaveUrban on Fri Apr 8, 2011 at 6:56 amI think you did a fine job. Only way to keep everyone completly happy is to set individual courses. We were notified about the climb to Start and the White, Green, and Black colors. I recall a 2.5 K, 400 meter climb to Start in Ireland. I asked and the response was it was "normal".
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Reply by edscott on Fri Apr 8, 2011 at 6:13 pmI agree with Dave.. Brown was quite appropriate and giving us a view of the Eastern slope was a good choice. Note that we only had to look at the rocks, not run through or over them. Courses, especially those designed for the introduction of a new map, should highlight the scope of features found in the area. If they were my courses, I'd have no second thoughts.
